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Hello!
you definitely want him to bring you the sheep when you back off. If he’s not, you need to evaluate why (is it his eye, the sheep youre using, are you stopping him too much, is it something youve done in his other training affecting this moment, etc. ) if you need help and want us to have a look at video of you working him, we do offer remote lessons, https://macraeway.com/online-lessons-with-your-dog/Hi Dirk, Can you please help me better understand the question by letting me know 1. which dog youre referring to and 2. are you asking how he/she learned their flanks?
Hello! super sorry for the delay, we have been traveling and I missed this, my sincere apologies.
To get light sheep quieter, try driving the sheep in a circle with more experienced dogs.
Additionally doing figure 8’s quite far up the field (in front you by 200 yards or more if possible) and if you can, make a concerted effort to NOT fetch sheep (instead putting the dog all the way around and calling off) It sounds like you have enough sheep you could do fetching and outruns with a quieter group.
From a running style perspective, a stop and flank style is often more suitable and therefore your dog with less eye may run a similar style. Also dogs with eye like to stay in contact and if sheep are super light and require dogs to work far off, this may actually be more difficult for dogs with a bit of eye. Hope this helps and again, sorry for missing it!!Hello! super sorry for the delay, we have been traveling and I missed this, my sincere apologies.
The drop downs menus are keys to finding content, heres a tutorial https://youtu.be/njG1fkihytU
Please let me know if you have any trouble after watching the video.
Also For Moss, it’s under Sheepdog Training >Foundation
Moss, Part 1
Moss Part 2
Moss Trial debut,
Hope that helps!
Hello! super sorry for the delay, we have been traveling and I missed this, my sincere apologies, if the flatness is due to lack of exposure, get the shape correct smaller first, it really is the way, as sen in Developing the Outrun,
however, 600-900 yards is what I’d consider too far for a pro novice dog. You mention your open dog and 2 videos that may help accelerate developing correctness at the top (if your dog is tight) include:
A Cone Exercise for Widening the Outrun,
and the above exercise doesn’t apply, we show another method in our Course, The Outrun,
Please be in touch if you need anything else and hope that helps!
Good morning! If I understood correctly, you’re using geography that requires a bend by design and reinforcing with a whistle, in essence trying to teach by association? It’s too difficult to comment on it without seeing it (otherwise it’s my interpretation of your interpretation of what’s happening, too much room for error) but I think it unlikely that association training would transfer to a trial or other setting when you dog is excited, determined or when he’s quite certain of the path he should should take to the sheep. I think you’d have much more success teaching with an intuitive system that demonstrates why it makes sense for your dog to change trajectory.. With regard to whistle, we elongate our flank whistles so while that wasn’t my regular come bye, it’s absolutely a version of it, extending the first note so that Jim knew it was a bend. I hope that helps and again, Teaching Bends is def. on the list of videos to make. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
Hi Margaret, Great questions and we do teach them very differently. The easiest way to explain is… when bending or redirecting, you are changing the trajectory of the path for the outrun for the sheep. This is very different than, looking back for a different/separate group of sheep, and asking for a new outrun….we adjust our training to make the distinction clear to our dogs. The first thing that would be helpful is for us to make a video on redirecting and that is on the list 🙂 Hopefully we’ll get that out this winter. As it relates to your post, what I can say is you’ll want to stop your dog sooner, such that you’ll be asking him to go wider, rather than having him turn back (hope that makes sense) . Please stay tuned for the new video and here’s an example of what I mean by stopping your dog sooner to go wider v turning back. Here I give the bend to Jim at roughly 9:00 on a clock face and he immediately gives a 90 degree bend, going wider on his original path, https://macraeway.com/academy/sheepdog-training/bending-a-dog-outrun/
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I would encourage you not extend your young dog too quickly and also be sure the way you’re developing the outrun is intuitive to her. Have a look at, https://macraeway.com/academy/sheepdog-training/developing-the-outrun/ If she needs to be wider, also have a look at ,https://macraeway.com/cone-exercise-for-widening-the-outrun/Hope that helps! Please let me know if I misunderstood your question.
Hi Kat,
A Border Collies ‘eye’ is said to be what separates this amazing breed from other herding dogs, but what exactly is it?
With some types of eye, it may cause a dog to stand still and not walk up on sheep yet, eye in another dog may cause him to keep moving and actually boar in on the sheep.
It can make a dog very direct or conversely, cause a dog to wear, flipping back and forth behind the sheep. It can be the reason a dog’s head is held down low to the ground yet, it can cause another dog’s head to be held up high.
Eye may cause your dog look at the sheep and be tight and or it may result in your dog looking away from the sheep and be wide. The list of contradictions goes on and on… Perhaps the famous supreme court justice said it best, “ I can’t define it, but I know it when i see it”.
Eye is certainly a paradox. You can generally tell how much eye your dog will have after he comes with his outrun. That said certainly your dog can develop more eye based on how you work him and on the Academy we have exercises to help reduce eye. While we know quite a bit about it and how it manifests, because eye is so complex, it doesn’t fit in a neat box that allows us to provide a simple explanation. If you have a specific question about it, please let us know.
As it relates to your dog, happy to schedule a virtual lesson to assess your dogs eye for you if you like. Lesson information can be found here,
some exercises specific to helping reduce eye can be found here,
Hi Kat,
I’ll try to address your questions by each letter below!Answers to A. and B. are the same in that, if you were to insist on depth (by pushing a dog out), or a time command by (insisting a dog rate/reduce speed), you would need to put pressure on your young dog. While there’s certainly a time when you’ll want both of these components, when you’re just starting to teach the outrun to your young dog is not it.
It’s not semantics to say, you can never recreate initial enthusiasm. Philosophically. we believe you’re far better off getting your young dog understanding and enjoying a task BEFORE you beginning shaping it.
As it relates specifically to the outrun most dogs will come with their natural genetics at the top with regard to depth without the need for your intervention as long as the handler doesn’t try to extend it too far too fast and uses the 4 steps in Developing the outrun (some dogs won’t even need your help developing, but many do).
For dogs that don’t develop on their own, we have tools on the Academy and in the course The Outrun to help, but not until they’ve come with own natural width and had sufficient exposure. If you push too soon you can make your dog too wide (it is exceptionally difficult to correct this) and risk putting too much pressure which can result in diminishing your dogs enthusiasm, (a risk that has far too great a consequence).The same can be true of pace. Pushing for it too soon can diminish your dogs enthusiasm also if you correct your dog at the start of the fetch for pace and you get the correction wrong (timing or method), your dog can associate it with this new facet of work, the outrun. (a stop, (stand or lie down) is a black and white command and does not risk the inherent misunderstanding (teaching the lie down as seen on The Academy in 3 videos under Foundation),
You’re better off compartmentalizing and teaching the outrun and working on pace later and separately. Unless your dog has a lot of eye and rates naturally in which case pace when training is preferable over the stop.
C. Brie doesn’t have much eye or natural balance and certainly balance work helps with dogs like Brie. It’s also helpful/important to have good handler input (stops and flanks ) to help her achieve the balance. over time and with the addition of adding pace it will have a cumulative affect of “developing balance” to pick up the straight line. The more she does it correctly with handler help, the more likely she’ll develop skills to be able to do it on her own.
Under Foundation you’ll see how we develop the outrun with numerous young dogs, Moss, Scott, Ted, Jake, etc (as well as multiple dogs in Starting Dogs). Here is a video on teaching pace as well as 2 articles on young dogs. Hope this helps!
Hello! I used just a regular stride and I’m 5′ 4″ (with pretty short legs 🙂 We did have good quiet sheep and if your sheep are a little wilder, you may want to step out a bit longer. It’s a lot of cones so if you have any other questions, please dont hesitate to ask. Happy Easter!
What are the videos on the forum?
Our Forum, including the topic, ‘Welcome to The MacRae Way’ is the place for Premium members to post your general comments and questions. You’ll also find numerous topics there and you are welcome to start your own topic, including if you have a question, need to find content or would like to request a new topic we haven’t covered-we value your input!
It’s also now a place for everyone to view additional video. This gives us the opportunity to provide extra content, without all the time and work it takes to produce an Academy video.
It may be footage from:
a trial we’re at
a sneak peek of a dog we’re training
and insiders look at day to day training
video of a new dog (I’ve posted about 2.5 minutes of Roy, who’ll be for sale later this year)
an outtake of an upcoming Academy video
(such as Nite working on his own or Nell shifting a ewe and lamb) or otherWe encourage your comments or any general question (such as,”where can I find content on The Academy that addresses this?”, “how old is he?”, “what trial is this?”, etc) but these videos will not be for analysis, (that will be reserved for Academy videos).
Hi Laura, When we first start a young dog we often allow them to continue to circle one direction and we only ask for a lie down once theyre ready, which certainly varies. Some dogs want to turn in naturally at balance but many run past and thats ok. It’s up to the individual dog as to when they are ready for a lie down and a good barometer for that is being certain they get back up with the same enthusiasm as before you asked for the lie down, if not, there’s a good chance that’s asking too much of your dogs at that time. In Starting dogs other than Zac the young dogs are a bit older . On The Academy we start several dogs before 12 months that illustrate some of your questions including Training Jake Part 1, Training Ted Part 1, Training Scot, Training Chip. In terms of lie downs you’ll find lots on that as well, Teaching Lie Down on and off sheep, How The Lie down can help you help your dog and Introducing the Lie Down on Sheep All of these can be found under Foundation, https://macraeway.com/academy/sheepdog-training/foundation/ or by going to the drop down Sheepdog Training>Foundation. Also Figure 8’s for every level you’ll find helpful here, (Focusing on the first few stages), you can find that here,https://macraeway.com/figure-8s-5-variations-for-every-level/ The reason we adjust the width of the cones in Starting dogs is to be certain there is enough sideways movement for the dog –the width can vary depending on the response of the sheep (more reactive vs. less reactive sheep). Moving them closer creates more reaction, hence more flank. As it relates to the very detailed questions about the video, we’d be happy to address those specific issues in a private lesson where we can drill into the detail while having the video available for discussion. Details for those can be found here, https://macraeway.com/online-lessons-with-your-dog/ cheers!
Hi Scout! Neither of us have ever put a young up but it is interesting question in that we’ve certainly heard of that practice. I think it mostly occurs with trainers who put too much control or pressure too soon for dogs that aren’t ready or put their dogs in situations over their heads, diminishing their dogs keenness.
We go the other way, getting he dogs to enjoy it as much as possible and increasing enthusiasm (too keen is more of a problem for us !) to your point, we may work a keen young dog 3 times a day in a shorter 5 min sessions versus a single 15 min session.
When we’ve had dogs that we’d like to see become more keen, sometimes we change the working pattern for a week or 2. For example, we will work them for 3 days in row and then give them a break for 3 days in a row. This often makes the desire for getting back on sheep build up and the anticipation becomes the boost they need. We generally start our dog between 8-11 months old. I hope I answered what you were asking. If not, please let me know, cheers,Hi Scout, one of the reason we always walk the course is to evaluate it from our dogs perspective.
Because their welfare comes first we’ve been to trials where we’ve scratched a dog do to a hazard on the drive that couldn’t be avoided. Also, we’ve sent on the outrun a less advantageous direction to avoid a hazard that was on the other side of the field—we’ll do whatever necessary to act in our dogs best interest!
